ARTANE HEARINGS 3
Q. Allowing for that, if I might generalise for a moment, what is the position of the Christian Brothers regarding the complaints that there was excessive corporal punishment and that there was sexual abuse? Without asking you to agree that every complaint was valid, in overall terms what is the position of the Christian Brothers?
A. The position of the Christian Brothers is that there were instances of both perpetrated by individual people, but the overall picture that has been given of Artane as an abusive institution is not correct, in fact the opposite is the case.
Q. We will come back to this in more detail later obviously, but to try and get some general observations out of the way first of all. I think your statement and submission is divided into a number of areas. The first deals with the early years and then you deal with management and administration, funding and finance, admission and daily routine, and discharge procedures in Artane?
A. Yes.
Q. Then issues of general welfare, such as food and health issues, then education and then you deal with a special inspection in December 1962, which was an inspection Archbishop McQuaid had put in place which the Christian Brothers were unaware of at the time?
A. Yes, it was an inspection that the Department of Education put in place as a result of events.
Q. Of course, you are quite right. The Archbishop had set up an investigation unknown to the Brothers and then following on that, there was another investigation by the Department?
A. Yes.
Q. We will be coming back to that. Then you deal with the issue of deaths of boys in Artane in the period under review?
A. Yes.
Q. Then the final years and closure. Your last section deals with the issues of both physical and sexual abuse?
A. Yes.
Q. Just to go to the particular areas of the statement and submission, can I ask you this; in general terms was the somewhat potted history and brief history which I gave of the institution correct? Was there anything you would disagree with in terms of the chronology of events?
A. No, I think that is fine.
Q. We know it started around the time Archbishop Cullen asked the Brothers to get involved and it ended in 1969?
A. In the early years the Brothers already had the property in Artane, it was intended for a novitiate and a training house for the Brothers. When the request came from Cardinal Cullen, the proposals in relation to the novitiate were shelved and the property was then used for the industrial school.
Q. Yes. The school was there to provide education, I think, up to Primary Cert level and then some further education evolved as well, is that right?
A. Yes, I would say there were three things. There was a formal primary school, which would be the same as any national school throughout the country and was under the Department of Education and so on and subject to Department of Education rules and regulations for primary school and for inspections. Then there was a trades training section or department, not a vocational school, but a training in trades. In addition to that, there was, I would say, part of the training in Artane was for the welfare, care and the health and so on of the pupils, and there was a lot of emphasis at that stage on physical care, on matters of hygiene and so on, on a way of life and practice of life and on seeking to be good at whatever you were doing. That sort of character building was very much a part of it as well and, I would say, was characteristic of Artane, and it is referred to frequently in the submission.
Q. On page 9 of your submission you deal with the subject of management and administration. You say that on the establishment of Saorstát Éireann, the Department of Local Government and later the Department of Justice became responsible for the administration of industrial schools?
A. Yes.
Q. Then this task was passed on in 1924 to the Department of Education?
A. That's correct, yes.
Q. Did that remain the position?
A. Yes, it remained the position. My understanding is, and I am not as well up on the legalities of it as obviously yourself and other people, that the Department of Health would have responsibility for health and particularly for contagious diseases like tuberculosis and so on. Generally speaking the main agent of the Government that was dealing with Artane was the Department of Education under two branches; the Primary School branch which dealt literally with the primary school in Artane, as it did with any other primary school in the area, and the Industrial School section which dealt with all other aspects of the institution.
Q. You then deal with the issue of local management of the school. I think the day to day management was the responsibility of the Resident Manager?
A. Yes, the overall responsibility was that of the Resident Manager, in other words, on the day to daybasis, the buck stopped with him. Then within each section, primary school, the trades, the farm, the band, the infirmary and so on. There was a person in charge of managing that and reporting, as it were, in management terms to the Resident Manager. On the ground they ran their thing and he was the overall boss, as it were.
A. The position of the Christian Brothers is that there were instances of both perpetrated by individual people, but the overall picture that has been given of Artane as an abusive institution is not correct, in fact the opposite is the case.
Q. We will come back to this in more detail later obviously, but to try and get some general observations out of the way first of all. I think your statement and submission is divided into a number of areas. The first deals with the early years and then you deal with management and administration, funding and finance, admission and daily routine, and discharge procedures in Artane?
A. Yes.
Q. Then issues of general welfare, such as food and health issues, then education and then you deal with a special inspection in December 1962, which was an inspection Archbishop McQuaid had put in place which the Christian Brothers were unaware of at the time?
A. Yes, it was an inspection that the Department of Education put in place as a result of events.
Q. Of course, you are quite right. The Archbishop had set up an investigation unknown to the Brothers and then following on that, there was another investigation by the Department?
A. Yes.
Q. We will be coming back to that. Then you deal with the issue of deaths of boys in Artane in the period under review?
A. Yes.
Q. Then the final years and closure. Your last section deals with the issues of both physical and sexual abuse?
A. Yes.
Q. Just to go to the particular areas of the statement and submission, can I ask you this; in general terms was the somewhat potted history and brief history which I gave of the institution correct? Was there anything you would disagree with in terms of the chronology of events?
A. No, I think that is fine.
Q. We know it started around the time Archbishop Cullen asked the Brothers to get involved and it ended in 1969?
A. In the early years the Brothers already had the property in Artane, it was intended for a novitiate and a training house for the Brothers. When the request came from Cardinal Cullen, the proposals in relation to the novitiate were shelved and the property was then used for the industrial school.
Q. Yes. The school was there to provide education, I think, up to Primary Cert level and then some further education evolved as well, is that right?
A. Yes, I would say there were three things. There was a formal primary school, which would be the same as any national school throughout the country and was under the Department of Education and so on and subject to Department of Education rules and regulations for primary school and for inspections. Then there was a trades training section or department, not a vocational school, but a training in trades. In addition to that, there was, I would say, part of the training in Artane was for the welfare, care and the health and so on of the pupils, and there was a lot of emphasis at that stage on physical care, on matters of hygiene and so on, on a way of life and practice of life and on seeking to be good at whatever you were doing. That sort of character building was very much a part of it as well and, I would say, was characteristic of Artane, and it is referred to frequently in the submission.
Q. On page 9 of your submission you deal with the subject of management and administration. You say that on the establishment of Saorstát Éireann, the Department of Local Government and later the Department of Justice became responsible for the administration of industrial schools?
A. Yes.
Q. Then this task was passed on in 1924 to the Department of Education?
A. That's correct, yes.
Q. Did that remain the position?
A. Yes, it remained the position. My understanding is, and I am not as well up on the legalities of it as obviously yourself and other people, that the Department of Health would have responsibility for health and particularly for contagious diseases like tuberculosis and so on. Generally speaking the main agent of the Government that was dealing with Artane was the Department of Education under two branches; the Primary School branch which dealt literally with the primary school in Artane, as it did with any other primary school in the area, and the Industrial School section which dealt with all other aspects of the institution.
Q. You then deal with the issue of local management of the school. I think the day to day management was the responsibility of the Resident Manager?
A. Yes, the overall responsibility was that of the Resident Manager, in other words, on the day to daybasis, the buck stopped with him. Then within each section, primary school, the trades, the farm, the band, the infirmary and so on. There was a person in charge of managing that and reporting, as it were, in management terms to the Resident Manager. On the ground they ran their thing and he was the overall boss, as it were.
posted by The Knitter | Sunday, September 18, 2005
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